No Bull Marketing Ideacast \ Season 3 Episode 1

Transcript

PRE-INTRO:

Sophie Brooks: My work centres on helping some businesses be less bad and that's okay because it starts them off thinking about this journey of where they need to go with sustainability and thinking outside of their profits.

Sarah Jordan: So, the 24th I was hand delivering thousands of pairs of underwear around Oxford and London to fulfil our commitments.

INTRO:

Becky Holland: Hello and welcome to the No Bull Marketing Ideacast. I'm Becky Holland.

Welcome to the new season of the BH&P No Bull Ideacast where we talk to the brightest minds and leaders in business to uncover the latest insights trends and stories that shape the world around us. Today we’re joined by two incredible guests who at the forefront of the sustainability movement.

It’s B Corp month so we're going to be discussing the importance of businesses as acting for a force for good and how businesses can make a real positive impact in the world. In fact, not just how they can make a positive impact in the world but how business has a responsibility to act as a force for good and how we can do that in a bit of a fun and interesting way.

So hopefully you will enjoy this as much as I know everybody enjoyed the last season. I know I will. So, without further ado I'd love to welcome my guests for today.

Welcome to Sophie Brooks and to Sarah Jordan, welcome to the show!

SB: Good morning.

SJ: Morning thank you.

MAIN CONVERSATION

BH: OK, Sophie, I need to make sure that I get your description right. So, you are the co-chair of Oxfordshire be local but actually your main focus is your founder of the Fit for Purpose Consultancy who are a sustainability consultancy.

So, tell me a little bit more about your story.

SB: So, my background is in PR and marketing where I spent 15 years leading agencies, mainly communications consultancies, started in London in the tech sector and then moved out to Asia Pacific and built a brand out there…

BH: That’s quite exciting stop there for a second. Where we where are you in the Asia Pacific or what brand did you build?

SB: We were living very fortunately in Sydney which is a bit of a cheat when you're covering the whole of Asia Pacific really. But my husband and I we weren't married at the time but worked the same consultancy which was called Text 100 in London and at that time, in the 90s, they were the largest and most dominant tech PR player.

So, the business floated actually on AIM and wanted very much to expand but didn't want to take the route of buying up different consultancies which was the usual route. We wanted organic growth, so we were fortunate enough to be one of a few people that were sent around to start up the brand in different parts of the world where they had aspirations. So, we were in Sydney for four years and I was Business Development Director when I first moved there.

But straight away we actually spun off a new brand to the Microsoft business under a different brand name and I led that which was a global business, the majority back in London, but we had offices in Sydney and Singapore and New Zealand as well.

BH: It sounds very exciting! But then you came back?

SB: Yes, so then what happened was, I essentially, I was happily working in that sector and then I got pregnant and had my first child and this is a common story I find amongst both men and women who I've worked alongside in the sustainability sector who have a bit of an epiphany when they start a family and start thinking a bit more deeply about what kind of world that they're bringing their child into.

But I think it started for me a bit smaller than that just with what I was putting into my body. I started to think about organic food and reducing chemicals and in the household as well. I started to think about how I was producing waste. I got into getting a wormery and recycling and those sorts of small things and before long that really started to bleed through into my professional life and I considered myself…if there was one talent or sort of strength that I had that was about simplifying complex issues through great storytelling so I started thinking about the issues that I was talking about and held that the kind of brands and companies and topics in the tech sector and felt that I could apply those same skills to better end through really trying to work with businesses that were doing more initially to help the environment.

BH: Sarah, look, it feels to me like I feel like this is quite a great opportunity to kind of bring you into the conversation because from the little that I know about your business already, you've kind of built it from the ground up with a focus on doing stuff the right way for want of a better way of putting things from the start. Tell us a little bit about you and what your thought is on what Sophie's just shared.

SJ: Yeah, definitely. Sophie’s story sounds really interesting. So, my background…well I suppose the inspiration behind the business was actually me being in Uganda. So, I was volunteering out there in 2016. One of my passions is supporting women in business basically and I was working with a group of female entrepreneurs out there and helping them with a business that they were trying to set up that was basically making reusable sanitary towels and nappies out of local products - all sourced sustainably - really good idea.

But they were struggling as a business and we couldn't work out why and it turned out because a lot of the women and girls locally didn't have any underwear so couldn't use the sanitary pads for example and it just really struck me that something so simple - cause it's literally the first thing you put on in the morning is your underwear - had such an impact because obviously the kind of health and hygiene issues particularly somewhere like that where it's so hot.

But just the risk of violence and the girls missing their education. So, every month when they have their periods, they would miss a week of school. So, from kind of nine or ten up they were just dropping behind the boys purely because didn't have any underwear. They couldn't go to school they were excluded, and we know how important education is for girls and it was just such a significant thing and something that I basically just couldn't get out of my head.

BH: I mean that sounds awful I mean you don't think about it on a day-to-day basis, do you? We’re all so engrossed in our everyday. But I mean that must be all absolutely awful for you as a girl you know feels almost like disability is a real disadvantage.

SJ: Yeah I just had I mean as you said it didn't even cross my mind I mean at the time…my background is actually working in charities and I worked at Oxfam for years and had been out in doing some of their programme work so I understand a lot of those issues but underwear just wasn't something that came on the radar at all and as I said was so, so simple and something we really take for granted.

But just had such a massive impact and I basically came back from there and was just like I can't get this out of my head I really want to be able to do something to tackle that. Because the community I was working with, the women and girls, were amazing and but really impacted by it and I discovered that it's not just Uganda it's not the rural area I was in. It's everywhere. It's actually in this country too. Period poverty is something that we’re really aware of and increasingly an issue in the UK as well.

I just wanted to do something about it.

And then I looked into how could we provide underwear? How do you manufacture it? Discovered the problems. Obviously, cotton is better for you as a natural fibre particularly close to your skin. But actually, conventional cotton is the world's most polluting crop. Huge amount of pesticides. Huge amount of water pollution and just really causes problems for the farmers and again the communities that are sort of working with it and growing the crop and then fashion, more broadly, is pretty nasty as an industry.

The short version of the story is joined those together and I wanted to do something that kind of tackles all three problems. So, we now only use fully certified organic cotton, so it's all GOT. It’s all Fair Trade making sure people are paid and treated fairly right the way through the supply chain and then we donate pairs too different charities for every pair that we sell so that we can provide underwear to keep women and girls in education basically.

And then it's kind of gone from there in terms of trying to make sure that we have definitely not a negative and a positive impact across everything that we do so it's been embedded I guess since I started the business.

BH: You mentioned that you had the charitable background initially. The obvious thing would seem to me that when you experience this - rather than going down a business route - that you would have thought well actually we need to create a charity or some sort of charitable trust or something that can support these people the actual choice to go and set up a business to do it rather than a sort of not-for-profit. Why did why did you go in that direction was it a very natural thing that just happened or a very conscious decision?

SJ: I think a mix of both. Partly it wasn't a conscious decision at all. I I never thought I would be starting a business. I just didn't go into it with that view. I wanted to tackle the problem but my experience in charities was very much ‘you are so reliant on donations and fundraising and grants’ that I really didn't want to go down that route I wanted it to be sustainable long term in in a broader sense. Because I recognised that sadly this problem wasn't going to go away.

We couldn't just do you know a single drop of underwear or…I really wanted to create something that was going to last and going to make a difference long term and for me that was just by effectively selling the products and…it did end up obviously being a business but going down that route rather than just a charity and I recognise, again from my experience of Oxfam, there are charities already doing a lot of this. Don't recreate that. Don't just call you know you're just adding to it. Work with the experts and look at how we could support them and as I said by doing something that was going to contribute over an extended period. Rather than just a one off.

BH: So, when did you set up the business? So, what's the journey that you've been on from start-up to where you are now?

SJ: Oh God it's been a hell of a journey.

So, I actually broke my leg, broke my ankle, really badly in Uganda and spent the following year on crutches. Or about 18 months in a boot. So [I] had to completely change everything that I was doing.

[I] used that opportunity I guess to rethink and to kind of work out what I was going to do to tackle the problem which ended up being Y.O.U. Underwear took about a year I suppose to kind of work out, as I said, if we were going to support people on one end I didn't want to exploit on the other which is where kind of manufacturing it ourselves ended up being the solution because then I had visibility through the supply chain I didn't just want to be buying cheap underwear from somewhere and causing more problems.

And again, it's mainly women through fashion supply chains who are so exploited. So, I wanted to make sure that we were kind of empowering. So, it took about a year to go through that sampling process I know nothing about fashion or manufacturing - or didn't anyway - so [I did] a lot of learning around how you design products how you manufacture [and] finding somebody that had the ethical credentials basically that I could trust that I could work with and understanding that whole cycle and process took about a year.

We did a crowdfunding campaign at the very end of 2017 to get our first range of underwear out. Which was amazing. But we'd committed to delivering the products by Christmas and slow fashion is slow by its very nature and they arrived on the 23rd of December.

So, on the 24th I was hand delivering thousands of pairs of underwear around Oxford and London to fulfil our commitments so, and basically from then, that's been the story. It's just a journey.

BH: Sophie, just bringing you back in. Obviously, you know, Sarah's businesses is quite inspirational in terms of that that story. But I'm guessing that a lot of the businesses that you work with maybe don't start from kind of more humble origins or their businesses that are doing something essentially that's much more commercial and then want to try and flip it on its head to do it in a better way you know?

What's your reflection on this? Is Sarah's story a very unique story? Or actually what does it look like for you in terms of working with your consultancy?

SB: Yeah, it's really interesting to hear it and incredibly inspirational story and work that Sarah and the team she's got have put in.

The point I would say…Fit for Purpose - which I set up in 2018 - works with a real range of businesses and some of those are very established multinational, or international businesses, which don't have a really clearly articulated social or environmental purpose at their heart yet.

But they do want to do better. They do recognise that in order to be this terrible word ‘sustainable’ what that means is that they need to have a strategy to survive into the future. And increasingly what that means is being part of the world around them in the context of the social and environmental issues that face us all.

Whether that be period poverty, whether that be gender equality. Or if that’s the climate emergency, [if it] affect society in the planet and therefore a business, any business, that is a small part that is within that that larger ecosystem and if they don't have a strategy to try and do exactly what Sarah's just described which is to become part of the solution. That's what business is for. It's there to bring solutions to problems. Not to be part of perpetuating the same problem so that's the work that I do and sometimes that means helping some businesses be less bad and that's okay because it starts them off thinking about this journey of where they need to go with sustainability and thinking outside of their profits.

BH: I think it is the getting started isn't it that I think is that the challenging thing for a lot [of businesses] and I think particularly if you are in a sector where it is not a ‘for purpose’ type of business.

I mean like I think about, you know, manufacturing or construction where you inevitably there are lots of things that you were doing, materials that you’re sourcing. The idea of becoming more sustainable again for want of a better word, is quite [a] daunting thing.

SB: Yeah, and so it's interesting you should mention that, and manufacturing in particular so we should probably mention B corps since that's what-

BH: Yeah, I was coming to that, but yeah.

SB: One of the many things that B Corp framework which is…they call it the Impact Assessment.

[This] is essentially an uber questionnaire that each business, that wants to certify, has to has to fill out and one of the areas that it's very detailed on is in asking you about your supply chain. Because if you are a manufacturer, it's a completely different way of thinking to start to think about the spend that you have. The power that comes with the money that you spend with your suppliers and whether you could do more good with that money and how you might go about ensuring that you spend the money in a more responsible way where you're not creating more negative impacts but you're driving towards a more positive impact model.

So that might be that you're asking your suppliers to adhere to higher standards, around environment you know. How their impact[ing] on the environment and environmental regulations how their operating whether they're actually choosing renewable energy for their factories etc etc.

So, it could be human rights and making sure that you're being really clear and have high standards in the selection of your supply chains so that you can demonstrate to you, that they don't have child labour going on, for example. So, there are always things that you can do even in what you might consider to be a big emitting, or a bad, or an industry that that clearly does have a lot of negative impact. There are ways that you can mitigate against that and drive towards more positive impact and that's what the B Corp certification is all about.

BH: Yeah, I mean – as you know – we’re kind of going through that process and filled that questionnaire so, you know. It's quite an onerous process. I think, for us as a professional services business if you like as a marketing agency, actually there were lots of things that you know were much easier for us to fill in.

But when you're in big business you know some of those changes is a bit like turning a tanker around and I suppose…It was quite interesting though I was at an ESP investing event a couple of months ago and Deloitte were talking about the demonstrable impact on shareholder value.

Of acting in more sustainable ways and whilst we may not like it is that idea that kind of money is what makes the world go round and actually for the big corps, they need to be able to prove that - to shareholders - that actually acting more sustainably and doing these things is not just going to make a positive impact on the world, but actually it's also going to increase the shareholder value and I think the more we move towards that under level of understanding that actually, offering value in the world and offering value to shareholders, they don't need to be pulling against one another they need to be working together. I think that's really kind of a key part of the puzzle.

SB: Definitely, I mean so the B Corp kind of philosophy, if you like, is to encourage companies to move away from a shareholder-led business strategy.

That's one that's really a slave to the shareholder and has to prioritise shareholder profits above all other stakeholder concerns and towards this multi-stakeholder model. By which they mean thinking about the impacts that your business has on your employees, on your suppliers, on the community in which you operate, on your customers as well as your shareholders.

But what you're just talking about there is not just the impact that the company has on the world, what the ESG Monica stands for, environmental and social governance, is all about the other way around.

So what are the impacts that that social and environmental challenges like climate change and biodiversity crisis are having on you? What are the risks that those pose to you as a company? Because you're it's beholden on any public company or any company with shareholders of any kind to make sure that they're being honest and transparent about the risks that those shareholders might be exposing themselves to through investments. So, if you've got for example a business that's very dependent on a scarce resource that comes from a rainforest, such as rubber or palm oil, then you're actually…your business is exposed to a lot of risks because in the future those resources.

A, you're going to already depleted and you’re going to dry up. And B, there's a lot of regulation that's going to make it very difficult for your business to continue to depend on those resources. So that's where the risk you know, exposing the risks of business, and where you've got that commercial and sustainability coming very closely together to be a very compelling…give a very compelling reason for businesses to think harder about sustainability.

BH: Sarah, I know when I first came across your brand, I was looking at your website, I think it was in January, and the thing that really drew my attention, I think, was a notification. I think it was on the top of the page, that basically said ‘all deliveries in January are free because actually we're all having a break, we're on holiday, and we’ll deliver them when we get back’.

Which I thought was wonderful and I thought it was really bold because it's the sort of stuff that big brands feel like can't do because of consumer demand. We've not really talked about it yet, but you are, I'm going to say the highest scoring B Corp in the UK. Can you tell me a little bit more about the people-side of your business and how you manage that why that's important?

SJ: Yeah so, I mean the holiday mess, that was basically survival, saying rather than any bold business statement.

BH: Well, it worked!

SJ: We’re a retail business and Christmas is the busiest [time], you know it's just mad. I'm still working to support the business. So, I have a proper job. I have a job on the side that helps grow our business and I've done - from the end of August - seven days a week all the way through till January and it just got to the point where I was like ‘I just I need to stop’, and everybody needs to stop to get – not balance -but just literally survive after Christmas.

I did have it is a very honest I think one of the things we've learned is being transparent with customers really does help. It gets…they see the human side of it, and they see that we are just a small business and just a couple of people behind the scenes trying to kind of make this work and they really appreciate that and give us a lot of support and leeway I suppose.

I think our broader people thing is just…it's a really hard balance because obviously if you’re going back to the kind of planetary stuff. If you don't have a planet, there is no business there's no people there's no nothing. So that’s kind of a given. But the people side I think if you don't have…if you don't support people at every level as a business…it’s kind of a basic right and they won't or can't protect the planet and make what we might define is kind of better choices unless they can survive, and people need to be paid properly to do that and so for us it's kind of living wage here. Living wage right the way back through our supply chain, making sure we really support that. We don't have child labour in the factories. The sort of traditional sweatshop views, [no] modern slavery. And just making sure people are treated properly the way that we want to kind of work as a business and making sure that that applies to everybody in that broader B Corp sort of stakeholder sense. That for our customers, the people that we employ, and everybody that we have work with making sure that they get that respect and that goes down to some of our like Fair Trade certifications as well which has a huge impact on the business in terms of profits and margins but for me it's really, really fundamental that we do the basics which I think is paying people properly.

BH: It's interesting, isn't it? Cause I think people do buy stories. Coming back to what Sophie was saying at beginning, and that human side of things brings stuff to life. Otherwise, you know, underwear is underwear you know. Buildings are buildings. Digital marketing is digital marketing. Baby food is baby food to use a few examples from B Corps we've been talking about. Or that are in Oxfordshire. But once you put a story behind this something that people can relate to it. [It] gives it life if you like?

SJ: Yeah and I think that does I mean as Sophie said the connections with B Corp businesses, in terms of staff, and we've attracted people who want to work with us and want to work for us and want to be part of our shop for example or support us in kind of anyway [they can], because we are a B Corp and that really aligns with their values.

But still, we are in a bit of an echo chamber and not everybody knows. We really notice that having a shop, the majority of customers do not know what the B Corps are so again it's making that a bit more personal and trying to explain the values. How we work. What the broader movement is. What changes we’re trying to drive and just making it much more relevant to them.

BH: Do you think that the B Corp stamp, if you like, helps you to do that? Because I appreciate a lot of people, particularly on the consumer side are not necessarily aware of it or what it stands for. But do you think as we move over time, if people become more aware of that, that will help? Or do you think it's just another thing to explain?

SJ: I mean I did it because it fundamentally aligned with our - my values and we are very values - I'm ridiculously picky about things like that. I really wanted to have that standard. Just like it was a bit of a no-brainer you know this is just not up for discussion really. We're going to do it.

It’s definitely help[ed], there is a lot of, obviously particularly in fashion, there’s a huge amount of greenwashing and it is an external accreditation that adds a bit of validation, and you know somebody else's checking that we are doing the things that we say that we're doing. If people don't know about it than it doesn't necessarily help, but I think it does contribute. As I’ve said we've got the individual certifications things like Fair Trade, things like GOT things like living wage that some people recognise and resonate for some people’s values some people are driven by other things.

B Corp for me is one that's a bit more holistic and sort of sits across everything. I think even if they don't know - and in reality, the majority definitely don't - it's a good talking point. It's a good conversation starter to say what is this? What are you trying to do? We make it really prominent in our shop, in Oxford, because part of it is just to say ‘What is this ‘B’ that you've got stamped on things and it starts that conversation and everything that we're trying to do is to do things a little bit differently and it just gives you an introduction and gets people thinking if nothing else.

Cause as you said most people don't know the harm caused by most things that we do, and they don't understand that not having underwear is a thing and it's a problem and everything else and it just allows you to make people stop to think differently.

SB: If I can just interject something. There's just [been] some new research that's come out this week actually from…that B Lab has done, which has revealed that 80% of the UK public would favour shopping from companies that are doing good for people and planet, but the problem is that 22% find it easy to identify whether a company means what they say they will when they’re considering buying from them.

So, what Sarah's talking about with that third party accreditation, that's what the B Corp logo delivers. At the moment there is research. We do know what kind of recognition level it's got it's around 38% and prompted, I think.

BH: It's quite high!

SB: It’s higher than you would think. But the problem is, is that people recognise the logo but don't necessarily know what it means. That research that shows you that, at the moment, it's very difficult for the consumer to know and whether they can trust the brand’s credentials when it comes to these things.

BH: So, what advice would you give to somebody, to a business, to a brand that I guess is passionate or has a desire to make more of a positive impact? What have you learned and what advice can you offer?

SJ: I mean for me I think having that motivation is hugely motivating. For want of a really useless sentence. Because it is hard, and it is hard to build a small business and to set things up and try and do that and to have a purpose behind it makes it more challenging. Because as Sophie said the [with] compromises you make, the costs are significantly higher. It is a lot harder. But to have something that drives you that when you get out of bed in the morning go this is making a difference and this is leaving the world in a better place, which I fundamentally believe we have kind of personal and business responsibility to do, really helps with that.

Because it is it does give you that inspiration. I just think do it and don't worry about doing it perfectly it's more the old advertising slogan ‘every little helps’ really is true it does make a difference. Every small change. You can't get to where you want to be in one big step it's just - I mean for us - every example and like our packaging you know it's a continuous process to do it a bit better and to take customers with you and explain what you're doing now, where you want to get to, what you've done well, what you failed with what isn't working and just making small changes. Everything really does make a difference and to tackle some of the issues like bio-diversity climate change we have to or make some massive changes but that all starts with the first small step, so I think ‘just do something’ and then you'll find it does build momentum and it is easier and this community is amazing at supporting you. And again, the B Corp, the hive, and people want to work with businesses that are doing this and so it does build its momentum and it really…you've got that community there to support you.

BH: Sophie, you obviously have experience of working with lots of different companies, lots of different brands, you know if somebody is listening to this and they work for a tech brand, a law firm, a construction business. What I would call an ordinary business for ordinary people if you know what I mean? Where do they where do they start? What advice would you give to somebody in terms of kind of starting their journey to doing stuff right?

SB: What is your core competence? What's the biggest positive contribution that you could make to some of the biggest challenges that we face socially and environmentally? The UN's sustainable development goals, not everybody’s going to be familiar with those, but the 17 SDGs as they're called, have been outlined essentially as a kind of code to codify the biggest challenges that the world is facing socially and environmentally and economically.

And I've yet to come across a business that cannot make a positive contribution towards one of those. One or more of those, in thinking about how they can apply…what they can do commercially, what they’re best at. If you're a marketing company, like yourselves, you know it's all about how you can help to simplify and bring these stories, as you're doing here, with this podcast is an enormously powerful tool in your armoury that you can use. And think about quantifying that.

What's the end result? How do you…how might you be able to quantify the positive impact that you’ve made as a business and have that, set that, as an ambitious goal for your company. Perhaps in 5- or 10-years’ time set something that's really inspirational and it can act as a North Star for everybody inside your business and outside in your ecosystem to understand and make sense of why you're here you know? Paul Polman former CEO of Unilever has famously said, you know, that every business leader now has to answer the question ‘why is the world better off because your business is in it?’ but I think I would encourage businesses to think about that.

BH: Brilliant question. I was going to say something else now but I kind of feel you tabbed it all off. I mean I feel incredibly grateful that we had, you know, we had over 10,000 people that business leaders and marketing leaders listen to this podcast last year. I'm hoping that, you know, that will double, triple this year so we can kind of spread the message about what we're doing. And even in our day-to-day work we do with clients we love working with sustainable businesses. We love telling the stories of people that are trying to do something better.

So, we're kind of wrapping up now. We’re in the last couple minutes. Is there anything else you wanted to share? Anything you want to say? Either I guess people might find useful or interesting about B Corp or your own businesses or I guess the conversation we've had today?

SB: Well, I'm just going give a quick plug for a couple of events that we are holding this month to celebrate as part of the B Corp month celebrations if that's okay in Oxfordshire?

BH: Of course, go for it!

SB: I’ll let Sarah talk about the consumer events. But I'll just say that we're the Oxfordshire B Local is holding an event kindly hosted by Oxford Brookes Business School on the 30th of March. It’s 6 till 8 in the evening, so if you are a business in Oxfordshire, Berkshire, Gloucestershire, the surrounding counties, Buckinghamshire, and you're able to get to into Oxford, it's free to book the tickets and you can find that by searching on Eventbrite I don't know?

But anyway…or get in contact with one of us through yourselves through the programme, I guess. But we are holding that and we're hoping to showcase some of our great Oxfordshire businesses including Bosch who are sustainable laundry people, Ella’s Kitchen, the baby food people and many, many more and hoping Y.O.U. Underwear will also be there and Sarah you're going to quickly say more about your event?

SJ: Yes, We're sort of doing something similar we have a shop in Covent Market in Oxford and we're opening up so through the whole of B Corp month, we've got a little B Corp display that talks about all the amazing businesses that are part of…that are B Corps, the impact that they're having and I'm in the shop every Saturday and on the 25th we've got an event where there's going to be a few others from local B Corp businesses is just there to answer questions explain a bit more about what they do how they're making a difference if you're interested in the B Corp movement as a consumer or as a business and want to support and learn a bit more about it than 12 till two on Saturday 25th in our shop, Y.O.U. Oxford, in the Covent Market will just give you a chance to kind of answer questions find a bit more about the movement and how to get started and what impact you can have.

So, I think my only other tip would be using the B Impact Assessment, the BIA tool, itself because even if you're not thinking of submitting, it is a brilliant way to get started in assessing. As Sophie said, where can you have the most impact? Where are you already doing a lot of stuff and where can you make some changes that will really improve that? And it's just a really good way of benchmarking and helping you to get going.

BH: Thank you so, so much to both of you. This has been fantastic. So just to recap, consumer event at Y.O.U. store in Oxford on the 25th between 12 and 2, but actually go along to the store anytime and see the display Talked to Sarah. Talked to the team, and the business event which is on the 30th of March at Oxford Brookes Business School, and I think the details on Ticket Tailor actually. But, anyway, you get in touch with any of us you can find out more information.

Thank you so much to my two guests today, Sophie and Sarah. Thank you for sharing your inspirational stories I'm sure my listeners this will be super interested to hear what he had to say. That's it from me thank you so much and have a fantastic day!

SB: Thanks Becky.

SJ: Thank you so much.

OUTRO:

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In the podcast description you'll find the link to the brands and all the information from the show. We’ll be back soon with another episode of the No Bull Marketing Ideacast. In the meantime, you can access all of the other episodes from the last two seasons as well as a whole bunch more videos how-to’s, articles, all sorts of stuff on our website at bhandp.com or follow us at BH&P on LinkedIn, on Twitter on Instagram, the links are in the podcast description. We’ll be back soon. For now, have a lovely day. Bye!