No Bull Marketing Ideacast \ Season 3 Episode 2

Read Sabrina's Guide to Personal Branding for Women in Tech (and everyone else imho) ...

Transcript

PRE-INTRO:

Sabrina Shafer: Love’s an interesting thing. The more you give, the more you get back, and I don't think there's anything more loving than just being authentic.

Here's a little nugget that I tell myself all the time. My job is to show up as myself. Their job is to figure out what to do with it.

INTRO:

Becky Holland: Hello and welcome to the No Bull Marketing Ideacast. I'm Becky Holland.

So today is going to be a really interesting show. I am excited but slightly nervous about the conversation I’m going to have with today's guest. She is sometimes described as a “sunshine tornado” She is an influencer on LinkedIn with 12,564 followers as I say this, I’m sure it’ll be more by the time you listen.

She’s the CEO of transformation CONTINUUM and a huge advocate for DEI, doing things right, bringing people and technology together to solve big problems.

My guest today, Sabrina Schafer, is going to be talking about fearing forwards and the art of the subtle brag.

MAIN CONVERSATION

BH: My fantastic guest today…well let you introduce yourself. Who have I got on the show?

SS: Thank you, thank you Becky. This is such an honour to be here. I really appreciate it. Hello everyone Sabrina Schafer. CEO of transformation CONTINUUM. We work with the world's largest tech companies including Amazon, Cisco, Dell, VMware, Pure Storage, you name it, helping them build solutions and take it to market. So, what an honour.

BH: Awesome, perfect. So on the show today what I really want to do is to just tell a little bit of your story cause I think it's a very human story where you've come to the position that you're in because of the journey that you've been through, and in particular, what I really love, what grabbed my attention when I first came across you on LinkedIn, was this idea of “fearing forward” so just tell me, let’s start there. What's fearing forward and why is it important?

SS: You know I noticed during the pandemic, I think we all kind of have these realisations or awakenings, during the pandemic, or at least I hope you did, and I notice that so much of what I was doing was either inadvertently or consciously dictated by fear. I either didn't do things because I was scared, or I did things because I was scared and I just kind of got fed up with that and wanted to learn a better way of doing things. And so way before I've done any of the neuroscience or neurological research on the impact of doing things that scare you on purpose, I started on this journey of doing things intentionally.

I made a list and it's posted on LinkedIn and our community, you're welcome to see it, that was one of my fears by the way is being, so you know unabashedly, I guess, open about things that I'm scared about. So, I just started taking on things that were scary and it started with silly little things, you know, like, as a woman, my hair is very personal to my identity so cutting my hair and you know talking about things that maybe are scary for me, especially as a CEO, showing emotion in places that you're supposed to be very confident. I’m in an extremely male-dominated industry, which I love! There’s no complaints there.

But, you know, sometimes emotion isn't always at the table, you know, at the executive table, and we were in the middle of a pandemic when our entire world was in panic and chaos and confusion and there's so much unknown. So, I just felt very compelled to bring emotion to the table. But again, that fear was pulling me back and so I started to do some research, reach out to some friends that I thought were exceptionally good at doing things that were scary and put together a guide called The Art of the Subtle Brag.

So, I wrote that guide. I did it over a couple weekends. It was all free and un-gated and it got picked up immediately. Apple, Dell, Google, Amazon, Cisco, VMware, I'm forgetting Intel, Samsung. The largest companies in the world picked it up and distributed it and within a week or two we had 12,000, maybe a little bit more or less, I think around there, 10,000 downloads. Not just clicks, of people downloading the guide, to figure out how to fear forward and it kind of helped me realise that maybe I'm not the only one who's scared of things and maybe if I could lean into that we could help some more people and since then, you know, it's turned into workshops. I've been invited to speak in front of thousands of people. I just spoke in front of Dell for their tech world events, and there was a couple thousand there like I said Intel's had me back a few times. Cisco…I've got another Dell presentation. In fact, just a couple weeks ago I was invited by Forbes to come speak for them.

So, it’s kind of all spiralled and I will tell you…public speaking was a fear of mine. So I just started leaning into things and the coolest thing about it, aside from this really neat network of really human supporting human, it's not just a man thing, it’s just a woman thing, or a non-binary thing, it is truly just a community of humans who will message me and say “I'm scared of doing this how do I do it how do I go about it?” or “hey I saw this really scary thing should we do it together?”.

But one of the other cool things about it is you start to find that doing things that are scary or fun, and you look for things that are intentionally scary for you. So, I just ran my first marathon. I wrote my second book. You know you're doing all these speaking events and the opportunity, and the mindset, that changes when you go through this fear forward evolution, is unlike anything I've experienced in my life and it's so much more fun than it sounds I promise. I know fear sounds scary but honestly it becomes fun. It really does.

BH: If you don't do things, you're afraid of then you end up just doing the same thing all the time and that's kind of dull. What was your trigger? You kind of talk about the pandemic but I mean the whole world went through the pandemic. Not everybody started fearing forwards like you did. So, was there a particular event or something? What was kind of a catalyst for you?

SS: It was really trying to [figure out] “how do I as a female millennial executive in tech …how do I translate what people are going through from an emotional and personal level into business”?

A lot of what we do is support these large organisations to help support their end user customers and these are massive organisations. Hospitals that were keeping people healthy and alive. Schools that were giving, you know, remote internet and education across the world. I mean we're not just talking about very regionalised things, and I kept having a lot of my executive friends tell me about how they were feeling. But we weren't able to share it publicly. There was this sort of unwritten rule that we were supposed to be brave, and brave meant ‘not have any emotion other than we've got this’. I have plenty of ‘we've got this’, but I think if you leave out the human element in life, you're leaving out way too much and so it was that sort of trigger where I was like I can't be scared to support other people that's insane. That seems so [like] I'm not fulfilling my role and somebody else should be doing this.

So that was the catalyst and when I realised, I was doing things, or not saying things because I was scared of the impact, I realise that's just not really a way to live and, if anything else, the pandemic taught us life is fairly fleeting you know and extremely precious.

So, I just couldn't take it anymore. I had to do something, and it started with me. As cliche as it sounds, the only way is going to impact these now couple 100,000 people was, I was going to do something scary. I was going to step out on a limb, and I just posted, I don't know if you've ever done this, I highly do not recommend it, but I just posted a picture of me crying on LinkedIn and I think it got like maybe 70-80 thousand likes…

BH: I saw it, I saw it!

SS: Lots of scary things. So anytime you follow me, everything I put on social is 100% me being terrified.

BH: You talk to me a little bit about your most successful LinkedIn post, I don't know if it's still your most successful LinkedIn post, but just so that the listeners kind - who haven't heard of you before - kind of get a flavour of it I'm just going to read it out so they can kind of hear what it is that you said.

So it was:

“Guess who’s back speaking at Dell Technologies today! Craziest part? There’s a #waitlist to get in because there’s so much interest.
I was FLOORED when I found out. These speaking engagements & workshops started after realizing being vulnerable is authentic, inspiring, & forces us to learn.
And then the crowds grew... and so did I.
Now “fearing forward” is becoming fun (ish… let’s be real). Yesterday I recorded a #podcast where I openly spoke about being homeless as a child for the first time. Last week I sang in front of #thousands for the first time. AND this week I’m running the #ChicagoMarathon… all for the first time.
Turns out, these have 3 things in common: (1) they terrified me; (2) they were firsts; and (3) they accelerated growth.
So, what am I saying? Find your “fear forward” and then show up, terrified and all. I’m learning that it’s in these conquering moments when you & those around you #learn the most.

That post has 71,000 – well this is when I when I wrote these notes, it’s probably got more now - 71,000 impressions. 124 comments and 12 reposts. So that's a lot!

SS: Especially going from zero. It went from zero to 100 in minutes. I mean to be invited on Amazon's executive podcast, and do all these live events and even, you know like I said when I got the call from Forbes like “wrong number. Forbes are you kidding?”, you know, so it really does…it's that's the best advice I could probably ever give is “find something that scares you and show up. Just do it, terrified and all.”

I will tell you, on Easter Sunday in about a week, I am singing in front of 12,000 people and I'm terrified. I am so scared and it's going to be recorded. I'm not going to tell you the link cause that would be even scarier but - I will tell you I'm kidding I do things that are scary right - but yeah it went from, you know, I started with a couple thousand and then it, you know, kind of evolved and I just got asked to sing and I'm not a professional singer. None of this…and by the way there's a lot of fails in here too. I know we're talking about a lot of the wins and successes of fearing forward, but there's been plenty of fails and those you kind of learn can be just as fun, or at least educational for you. Something you can learn from it.

BH: Failing, I think, is really important. I talk a lot about failing. Less maybe on a personal level, more in a business context, if I'm honest particularly on LinkedIn but I think failing is probably the most important thing we can do in life. If you don't fail, then you don't learn. You're just on this kind of great rollercoaster of life and everything is great.

But it’s when you come back from these things and you reflect on everything “what can we do differently how can we make that better?” That we grow as people but also as you know as brands as the kind of companies that we worked for? The organisations. You probably experience this more than anybody else, but big tech is the worst for moving slowly, researching everything, planning everything. It's like ‘that boat sailed! We should have just done that one thing’ and that fear of failure in big tech is huge!

I guess we need to make that transition between fearing forwards as individuals but also getting cultures and organisations to fear forward and to embrace failure and that's quite hard.

SS: Right. There are a lot of overlaps and similarities, there are differences of course because when you're talking about a business, obviously, there's so many large ramifications that you do have to think through, and you have to be calculated.

When it came to my own personal growth, you know, there were things that would have easily been career suicide. I openly talked about an unconscious bias I had about gender you know? I've asked friends a very wonderful friend of mine who is an executive leader [she’s] extremely technical very brilliant Latina Muslim woman who wears a headscarf to work and we talked about religion and wearing a headscarf in IT.

I mean these are career limiting things, but I just figured if I'm not going to grow how will I ever inspire anyone else to grow? As a leader I think that's my job is that’s what we can do to empower the conversation is I'm a real human. I have real feelings. I'm scared about things but I'm going to still do them. In fact, you can watch me do them almost on a daily basis and I will tell you, I've never had stronger relationships. I've never had as many people reach out. I've never had more connections with people that felt more genuine and sincere than when I was first open, honest, and vulnerable. Just like I said in that post.

I'm learning that it's the more authentic and vulnerable you are the more, I kind of learned to grow into who I'm supposed to be and grow into myself.

BH: There's probably an element to this. People listening to this and looking at that and thinking well you know “my story is not as exciting as that, like what if I put myself out there? and nobody’s interested. I haven't got this big story.” So, what would you say to somebody that feels like that?

SS: I wrote this in my first guide and by the way I have my fourth guide coming out, also free and ungated, on Wednesday. But I wrote this in the guide you know I wrote an article called The Art of a Subtle Brag which was something I was really scared about. ‘How do you talk about yourself?’ and I broke it down into four steps.

It's about saying, “I did this. You can do it too” and when you come in with that framework, all of a sudden it doesn't matter if one person liked it or 1000 people liked it. It's about “did I inspire one other person to maybe be a little bit closer to who they're supposed to be?” and in that you will grow into who you’re supposed to be. You will grow and evolve as a human, and a lot of times when I get into my head…here's a little nugget that I tell myself all the time…my job is to show up as myself. Their job is to figure out what to do with it.

So, when I overthink in a meeting in an e-mail, with friends, whatever. I go “did I show up as my authentic self? As my best authentic self?” and if I wasn't my best self then check that then we need to go back and go and “what do we do to make that better?”

Personal growth is important. But if I did show up as my best, most authentic self. Stop the conversation there. It's their job to figure out what to do with that and I found that that's helped me a lot and at first it will be your mom or dad liking it.

I will say the other thing you are always welcome to tag me in a post. I highly encourage that you do that or at least build your own network of people - Becky you're in my network - of people who want to support you and you want to support them and if one person likes it that's one more than how I started, you know?

BH: So, when you talk about The Art of the Subtle Brag, what is the Art of the Subtle Brag in a nutshell?

SS: In a nutshell I kind of - just spoiler alert I just gave it to you - it's [about] you’re not bragging about yourself. You're saying, “I did this you can do it too” and there's four steps.

First, you're going to say, “here's what my problem was” and you'll see if you kind of go through that post that you just read, or any of my other posts, first what was the problem? What did you do about it? What was the result and what's the takeaway?

So, a lot of times you'll see I follow this very literal, and I'll say, “so what am I saying?”, “what's the takeaway?”, “what's my point?” and I'll say things like “show up, find your fear forward and show up. Terrified and all.” The Art of the Subtle Brag, the ART of the brag is, it's not about you.

It's about inspiring someone else maybe a little bit closer to doing something that's scary or that's a growth moment for them. That's kind of, in a nutshell, Art of the Subtle Brag.

BH: It’s quite scary being the leader of a smaller business. We have like a global recession, we have fallout from the pandemic, we have this kind of weird hybrid work scenario and actually people I think, are much more disparate than they ever were before and actually I have some days when I wake up petrified and not knowing what the day is going to bring and yet you have to kind of put your game face on every day and not let anybody see.

So, I guess your art of fearing forward is, actually you know, you don't have to put the game face on particularly not for your close team and your network. Let them see that you find this scary cause that's who you are!

SS: You know I think that there is something to this, of being overly optimistic, it's almost like gaslighting your customers and your team if you're too positive. Things aren't always perfect. I know right that's what I said when I heard that my…huh? That's not my [idea], I can't take any credit for it but as soon as I heard that I thought “well there's something to that” you know? There's this toxic, you know, culture that we talk about all the time.

Perhaps, and again I need to think more about this, and I'm very interested to hear the comments or read those comments from your viewers and listeners on this, because I'm sure they'll have way more knowledge and insight and hopefully some research on it too. But I think there might be something to it if we're lying to ourselves, and even to our customers and our teams, that there's sort of a form of gaslighting in there.

I can imagine it would be much harder for me to trust somebody if they told me they were always happy and I think the only real collateral we have, the only real, you know, monetary, I guess, collateral we have is really trust, right? Is building that trust with your teams, with yourself, keeping your own commitments, and then of course with your clients, you know?

So, I think if anything it makes you more trustworthy to say, “hey guess what I'm also human.” Anything great takes time and if you really want to do it right, it takes honesty, both with yourself and others. Sometimes it takes years, and as a leader of any kind, and I believe that everyone has impact, I learned this years ago from a mentor and it's always stuck with me. Never underestimate who's learning from you. It's unbelievable. The babysitter the librarian! It’s unbelievable who's learning from you. So, I believe everyone has impact and is leading something.

So, this applies, in my opinion, beyond just the C-Suite. But I think if you're willing to be honest, enough of the right people will show up and sometimes it takes years and that's really, really hard. But doing the right thing is difficult otherwise more people would be doing it, you know? So, it’s just showing up and believing in yourself and we've talked about iterating and learning and investing in yourself and pivoting when you need to so it's not just to say you know “stick your feet in the ground and don't budge”. There's an evolution that happens or should happen with all of us.

BH: So, do you think, just kind of coming back I suppose to what you do in transformation CONTINUUM when you’re [ in your] kind of day job. Presumably your clients the people you work with they see, and they hear all the things you are saying. Do you think that has an impact then on how they operate and is that part of their transformation? Talk to me little bit about that…

SS: It's the coolest. It's the coolest! In fact, I just posted something, maybe a couple weeks ago, or something like that. I was on a call with a massive client. There was a small team of us, but all very senior level, and one of the senior leaders on the call gets on and says “boy just, I get to tell you, I’m so out of it, I had such a rough day” and being the nosy person I am I said “why what’s going on, Mike, everything OK what's up?” and he said actually “my best friend's daughter just died of an overdose.”

It was like he punched the screen. I knew my whole heart was just…you could feel his pain permeate the screen. It wasn't just like visible and so I started to kind of tear up because it's hard for me to see somebody else in so much pain it just happened like the day before. It was so raw. I don't even know I was on the call frankly but anyway. So, I started just kind of like…I see like a little tear trickle down and I really thought “you know what I better turn off my camera” and then I thought “no you know what nobody saw it. It's fine. I’ll just keep it on and we’ll move on” you know and so we started talking and he later…he messaged me about how that single-handedly moved him so much and that has strengthened our relationship. Not just with the customer. But him and I, I think have a newfound relationship and trust with each other that there's no amount of happy hours, networking, lunch and learn, NOTHING will facilitate that level of a connection.

I posted about it. I kept his you know name anonymous and everything and that was a picture of me crying and I posted a picture of me crying and a picture of the letter that he wrote me and it was heart-breaking and warming all at the same time and if I had to guess I'd maybe had 20-30 people reach out privately - of course there's a couple hundred on the post itself - but a couple of people reached out privately saying this happened to me too. Or, you know what, I'm part of this charity, come speak to us, or hey I'm trying to do this big thing with my life and I'm struggling with this addiction can we… whatever? And so, the impact, not just on yourself, but on your clients is massive and yes there is a business ROI to this, and we've had the same thing in our internal team.

I just had one of my favourite folks on the team…she wrote her own articles. She's never written an article. She's very private and she wrote her own article called ‘fearing forward’ and she talks about ways that she was fearing forward and she's, you know, another friend and teammate is now working out and, you know, is on this whole health kick journey because of it. So, it's so inspiring and I'll tell you when you're with other people who can be honest and go “I have no idea how to solve this problem” I really think trust is at the heart of that.

Warren Buffett said this years ago. Probably 10-15 years ago now. Maybe more. He said “love’s an interesting thing. The more you give the more you get back and I don't think that there's anything more loving than just being authentic. I think it creates a space unlike anything else you really can do, and the impact’s been beautiful and touching on my own life.

I mean I've been so connected with people that I never otherwise would have.

BH: It's only through being brave and engaging in these conversations that you kind of find the like-minded people and I think it's that community of like-minded people altogether behaving in this way that then encourages others to kind of go beyond what they're comfortable with.

SS: And there's a lot of neurosciences behind it. We talk about in the Art of the Subtle Brag workshop. The people who see your post, there's a lot of neurosciences about the types of neurotransmitters that happen in your brain and the kinds of chemicals and hormones that happen in your brain, that make these habits easier. There’s a same kind of thing. It's called a mirror-neuron happens in other people’s brain when they see you doing something courageous. The more they see us be vulnerable, the more they can do it, the more they accept it. This is how you help people.

BH: How would you say somebody should start to embrace the Art of the Subtle Brag?

SS: I can only tell you what I would do, or what I did, and continue to do. When I start to notice something is scary, or I start to notice like “Ooh I don't know if I should do that” and it's been everything from mountain biking, to running marathons, to public speaking, to singing, to writing a book. I mean you name it. If it's scary to you, put it on the list, and then just start with something.

You're not going to be not scared. It's like going on a diet and not expecting to be hungry. You're going to be a little hungry. That's going to happen. You're changing things, and the way the brain works is, you know, there's these little neuropathways, kind of like a little highway in our brain, and the more we do something that deeper the highway, the more the habit gets built.

You’re really…you're literally changing, physically your brain, when you do these scary things, so it's supposed to be scary. Your brain likes repetition cause it keeps you safe, you know? If we want to get into like the whole psychology behind it. So, it's important for you to feel scary. Embrace it a little bit and go “okay, alright, I got this” and I will tell you I was on my way to have one of the scariest conversations I've ever had in my life.

It was with a family member that I hadn't spoken to in years and I was like “how am I going to do this?” and I was kind of, to be honest, [having] a little bit of a panic attack and it's like “what do I do how do I handle this? Do I take a shot?” and I just kept saying to myself “I do scary things, I do scary things I do scary things” and it works. I promise you, and the more…it’s that commitment, it's that [idea of] keeping your trust to yourself. The more you do scary things the more you will remind yourself “I do scary things. This is what I do” and by the way the conversation went excellent. It went wonderful. Not that they always do! Fearing forward doesn't mean perfection. But when you push yourself to do things [that are] scary, you teach yourself that you do scary things.

Someone I met through all of this is a CTO at Dell and she has an incredible story. I'm an immigrant, as you read earlier, I was homeless at one point when we moved to the States and that's a whole other story, and she too was an immigrant, single mom, then went on to Harvard and is now, like I said, a CTO at Dell and she shared her story. I do these, you know, 20-minute lives, or whatever, and she talked very openly on her live about how she had to do things very scary, because she didn't want to be, you know, an Indian woman in a predominantly male industry, copying other men. She wanted to be true to her heritage, be true to her culture, be true to her gender.

She wanted to do all these things, and that was at a time when that wasn't really an option. It was early 90s, you know, things are kind of getting better but not entirely. Especially in, you know, really high tech, and so she talks about this as well. How the idea of doing scary things has become so much fun for her and it's crazy how it works. It was unintentional, unintended consequence of all of this. I had no idea how much fun it would be to really look for things that are scary and then conquer them.

BH: I'm just kind of thinking about the world as it is at the moment and obviously there’s been a lot of kind of layoffs in big tech. There are a lot of people that are brilliant people that have found themselves kind of wondering what they're going to do next in their lives. What's your reflection on that or what have you experienced in your world over the last kind of few months around that and what would your advice be?

SS: Get good at bragging. Get good at bragging. Even if you want a promotion. Anything. There is 100 million reasons why you should get good at bragging. The first one is, people can't read your mind. They don't know what you've done, and if you can do it in a way that says, “I did this you did it too”, you're also helping other people. So, get good about talking about your accomplishments. I think this is generally more difficult for women than men - not always - so get good at it.

That's why I put the guide out for free. It's totally un-gated. I cannot tell who looks at it. I don't spam or anything like that. It's literally a passion side thing that I just felt like I should share. But get good at bragging. Get good at either like communicating and saying, “hey here are some cool things that I've done.” I've done it in this interview. We've talked about some of the cool things that I've done and people I'm friends with, and how I got there. You can do it in a humble, subtle way, but you’ve got to get good about talking about your accomplishments and yes, some people are going to think you're bragging. Remember, you don't like everyone not everyone, not everyone will like you. But if you show up, your job is to show up as your best, most authentic self, and if you do that, turn the rest off.

So, a very, very good friend of mine at Dell - Intel sorry - she was in one of the workshops until invited us to do the workshop on The Art of the Subtle Brag, and she calls me up later to say ‘Sabrina, I got the craziest story for you.” I’m like “Oh God, what did you do Amy? What did you do?” and she's like “well I was sitting at the lunch table, or at the dinner table, with my kids, and my husband and, you know, I was talking about our brag or Subtle Brag workshop, and I was all excited, and she's like “the next day, you know, I'm at work and I decided I'm just going to go for it. I’m going to tell my manager, a subtle brag, about something cool I did and we got these really great results, and, you know, there's something to be said, you do have to give ownership in recognition to your team. But you also have to say “yeah this is where I stepped up. Here some areas I want to learn in. I need your help growing here. Whatever.”

So, she did that. Her husband comes running in the room and he's like “Amy did you just? Did I just? Did you just brag?” Who were you on the phone with?”

She's like “you'll never believe, it was my boss.” So that night they're back at the dinner table with the kids - her teenagers had invited a couple of her friends for dinner – and, you know, the dad is talking he’s like “you’re never going to believe what mum did. She just bragged for the first time to her boss, and it went so well, and her boss gave her like a connected recognition, like a like a “good job”, like a pat on the back. That kind of thing that you do at work, and the kids then started asking questions. So now you're influencing four teenagers and a husband and a wife and a…

You should never ever underestimate who's learning from you. It's so much bigger than us, you know? That's the fun part. I think that's the real fun part. So, if you've gotten laid off, or you're looking for a new job, or promotion, whatever it might be, my best advice for you is get good at bragging. I think there's this natural negative connotation to bragging. I think that's The Art of the Subtle Brag. Younger people need to learn this as well early in their career, people coming back into the workplace. Reach out to people. If you can learn how to connect with people and ask scary questions, it’ll take you further than doing something alone.

BH: Thank you so, so much I have absolutely loved talking to you. Do you have any final words to say, or shall I leave you to your day?

Actually, I do have one question for you before you go, sorry. What song are you singing? What are you singing?

SS: So actually, it's an Easter service. So, I will be singing gospel music.

Even back when I was in Germany, barely even spoke English, my grandparents would always listen to gospel music and my grandfather was, you know, just really into it even though he didn't really speak English, you know? So, I will be singing gospel music on Easter Sunday and cannot wait! I'm so terrified it's not even funny. I'm sure it's going to be just fine, or it'll be terrible. I don't know. You know, I'll tell you I just took on a speaking engagement at [an] extremely technical [event]…in fact they’re paying me to be a technical expert and I go “oh my gosh, you made a huge mistake” and I did one and I thought “oh I bombed it. I bombed it so bad. Oh, it was so bad.” I was so humiliated, and I was…it was what it was…and they just asked me back last week to do another technical session!

So even when you think you do terrible maybe it's not as bad as you think. I don't know. But either way, I'll maybe, on the next episode, I'll let you know if I totally bombed it.

BH: That would be awesome and I'm sure you're not going to bomb it. I'm sure you’re going to be amazing. Thank you so much. It has been wonderful speaking to you enjoy the rest of your day and I will speak to you again soon. Bye!

SS: Thanks, bye!

BH: Okay stay there just going to stop…

SS: OK…By the way you're such a great interviewer! This was so good! I was even thinking like “how am I going to have a live with you?” I mean, you know, you're such a good interviewer! I’m like “how am I going to like live up to your interviewing skills?”

BH: Oh really?!

SS: You didn't know that? Oh, it was so good. Yeah. It was very good. Very natural. You know, I do a lot of these now, in fact, you know, yeah so you start to notice like who was a good interviewer or…yeah, you're exceptional you really, really are!

OUTRO:

BH: So that just about wraps it up for today's show. I hope you’ve enjoyed it as much as I have. There are links in the podcast description to all of Sabrina's guides and it'll be great to hear what you think. So, if you've got any views on this show, or on the other shows, if you’d like to be a guest on the show, if you just want to chat with me about marketing, I just love to hear people’s stories, share people stories, so you can connect with me on LinkedIn, at bhandp.com, or probably just Google me. See what happens. Anyway, for now I hope you have a wonderful day. I’m Becky Holland and I'll see you next time. Bye!